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Discussion in 'THE AIGBURTH ARMS' started by jmc2000, Oct 15, 2017.
Thank you. I apologise too for my outburst! X
Oh, I'd say it's been like this for about six months. "The gang" only really emerged on the forum earlier this year, in response to those attacks I talked about.
Certain enabling aspects predate the current acrimonious situation - namely:
- People complaining about our posts, while posting "marmite" stuff themselves. During my own tenure, I think the public complaints about Cloud were more about his many irrelevant "wacky jokes" than any bullying. The ones about me were objections to my long-running disagreements about topics like religion, economics and sexism, and my plot-hole nit-pickery.
- Some members of the gang having less-than-good-natured relations with Neil and others. These were actually political at the time (because there used to be a lot more politics talk here), rather than purely interpersonal.
I think the main flash-point revolved around the poster I described in my earlier post. There was quite a fog of war during that time and leading up to it, which led to us having secondary fights with others and probably hardened some people against us (EDIT: and probably made us less compromising, too, when we felt annoyed or hard-done-by).
No one has a problem round here except @Deep_Space_in_the_15th_Century
Deep Space does have a point that I let direct name-calling go more than I perhaps should do (and certainly more than the rules stipulate). I can't stop people having arguments but I do want to encourage people to "play the ball, not the man". Sometimes when I don't take action it's because the moment has already passed by the time I've got to it, and bringing it up can just end up causing even more grievance than letting it die away.
I could take a more firm line with this stuff, but what I'd rather do is have people stop doing it before it gets to that. So I guess, take this as a request to be more mindful of that rule, and from now on if these posts continue to happen I'll start to enforce it more. Ant, I know you hate it when I single you out but there have definitely been a lot of examples of it from you (not just from you, but heavily from you) in the course of this discussion, so please stop resorting to it.
To answer the specific question about Neil's avatar, it wasn't just that it was "an anti-immigration avatar", it's that it was inflammatory in its message, and came as part of a sequence of inflammatory avatars and signatures on similar subjects (and it was nothing to do with "the gang" complaining/reporting, either - it was my own observation). I asked Neil to change it, and set a general rule that that sort of political/religious/etc messaging (of any side) should be kept out of signatures and avatars from now on. The reason for this is that it means that the message gets tied to every post you make (including in the RD sections), and it's often not appropriate (and can cause those political arguments to spring up where they shouldn't). As far as I can tell, Neil accepted that point, changed it, and it hasn't been a problem since.
I also want to quickly add that the chatroom isn't the only off-forum community that's linked to this one. You have venues like Dimension Jump and the fan club, plus other forums like Ganymede and Titan. We aren't the only people who have overlapping social spheres, or relationships on the forum that don't exist in a vacuum.
Say person x treated person y really (genuinely) badly on this forum, then followed them to forum 2 and had further bad blood with them there.
Hopefully, the members of forum 2 would recognise that person x was in the wrong and be supportive. That's actually a situation I've witnessed, where a genuine troublemaker from our forum followed someone to G&T and tried to cause bother for them there. It helped that the troublemaker had never been on G&T before, and opened their account in such a transparently abusive way that they didn't get any traction. But, it could have gone another way. It depends how subtle person x is, how well the others know person y, and how person x pitches themselves to neutrals.
Perhaps person x already has some allies on forum 2, or starts threads that people find amusing and want to continue. They might wrongly decide that person y is merely "bullying" person x, and launch their own attacks on person y accordingly - leading to secondary "side-beefs".
Perhaps other people don't care who's at fault, and are just ideologically repulsed that a dispute from somewhere else has been dragged onto their own forum. They might end up being more angry with person y and allies, if they feel they did the lion's share of carrying the drama over - regardless of what the dispute actually is. Based on your previous posts, I think you might have some sympathy with that position, @Deep_Space_in_the_15th_Century - but it doesn't make it right to style person y and friends as "bullies", even if you disagree with their behaviour.
A combination of the two scenarios could lead to person y and well-wishers "closing ranks" to look out for each other on forum 2, in what has become an increasingly hostile or powder-keggy atmosphere.
It doesn't have to be another forum. Say a popular member of our forum went to DJ and behaved absolutely dreadfully to another member. A similar scenario could play out here, since there's such an overlap between DJ attendees and forum members.
In both cases, the original victim (and defenders) could end up having several secondary side-feuds, gaining an undeservedly bad reputation among casual observers.
That's basically a situation we've had as chatters, TBH. Ultimately, this forum doesn't exist in isolation; it's embedded in a fandom, and there's overlap with other online and real-life spheres.
I think there's different things being confused here. I mean, is this thread literally "who doesn't like us?", like in the Young Ones when Rik says "hands up who likes me?". In that case, there's no right or wrong. We can dislike people for posting stuff we don't like/understand/care about, there's not much that can be done about it. That's life. If someone doesn't like me because of my tastes and interests then that's cool because chances are I don't like them either. I wouldn't complain that I don't like someone purely on taste. I mean what would the complaint be.
But most forums have rules like don't abuse people, don't derail, which this forum does in writing but it's not enforced in practice. In my experience of forums this sort of thing definitely /is/ unusual. Not right or wrong, but a reason for the different expectations. And you did specifically ask "who doesn't like us?", so I'm not sure what you were expecting. You presumably weren't expecting to hear from me since I wasn't involved in any of these arguments.
It's one thing to look at Neilold starting a horror thread and think "there goes Neilold with his horror again" and step around the thread you don't care about. It's another to start telling him what to do. I didn't complain about umpteen dedicated Tex Rimmer threads in isolation, I'd observed that silently and thought wtf. I eventually complained to Seb about it cropping up in every other thread, even proper Red Dwarf ones. And I complained straight to the moderator which is what makes sense to me. No argument, mod makes the decision.
We all watch Red Dwarf, but beyond that we're obviously from different walks of life, different religions, politics, personalities, socioeconomics, life experience, books, films. I don't begrudge someone not caring about plot-holes. I disagree with them and on a TV forum would get along better with people who share my angle - that goes for everyone I imagine. But I do begrudge them coming into a plot-hole thread to complain about it. Similarly, it's one thing to start another Tex Rimmer thread, it's another thing to go into other threads and say "why isn't this thread about Tex Rimmer?". Do you agree?
I find it kinda interesting just how much my name has being bartered around on this thread. Here's some of my opinions on the matter
Am I bullied?
Well it depends on your interpretation of bullying. Things I have said have certainly found their way into other peoples quotes, and being frequently repeated and joked upon, is this a kind of bullying, or just playful banter, depends on your view of how serious it is and how you think it does or doesn't effect me
Am I treated differently than others, over the avatar
To a degree yes, it was my fault I put the avatar up in the first place. But I have read countless abusive posts and stuff that is far more personal than the avatar itself, which was pretty much generic in its targeting, rather than an individual attack. so does generic outweigh personal attacks in severity, or seriousness when it comes down to an individuals decision when it comes to issuing a warning? hard to judge
He said this, she said this, this happened previously etc.
there is far too much of this kind of nonsense on here, and the fact that a thread merely on the subject of it has already hit page 7 should be entire proof of that. You can present all the evidence and hearsay you like, it still doesn't mean much at the end of the day. Also it draws people in both naturally and moralistically, and this usually tends to lead to other issues
is their a clique on here
deffo yes, that doesn't necessarily mean its purely evil, or only good. Though a clique, by its nature, is self serving and self supportive. Yes there's nothing wrong with in-jokes, but it's when it goes on and spills into other parts of the forum, avatars, sigs etc that it becomes very tedious for those that either don't get it, don't find it funny, or are outside the joke. I'm talking about the spreading of it here, not the actual original joke itself. Though all this doesn't, by any means, mean it was started with evil future intentions.
people may find my views offensive
Fair enough, though i'm certainly not going to change them, or myself. I have read though that some on here 'bare a grudge against me for it', again okay, but should it really have a bearing on me personally outside of discussion on said topic, probably not. But I'm not gonna be self aggrandising and lecture on that, to much of 'dear mr pot, love mr kettle' for me to be really upset about it to any kind of serious degree.
At the end of the day we are all judgemental and make instant snap decisions on things. Especially on a forum, where faces and tones of expression are difficult to judge. so I guess the only outcome to all this is either, accept it, ban the forum and chat sections, or block en masse.
No quotes I'm afraid - too fiddly on train.
The purpose of the thread - well, the title of it was blunt and arguably clickbaity. But, as the opening post says, it's a thread to raise grievances and have some civil discussion about them.
Different things being confused - there are certainly multiple things being discussed. One of your points was your perception that some of us bully people, which I've focussed on (especially in recent posts). I actually don't care if people "like" me (I take it for granted that a lot of people don't) but would like to discuss and hopefully counter the perception that I'm a bully, or support and enable bullies, or that my friends do.
As for walking into threads and repeatedly bringing up the same off-topic in-joke - that's clearly "different" (no value judgement intended) to starting yet another thread that not everyone will be interested in, that's very similar to a lot of your previous ones. I'm surprised by the strength of feeling however. I know some people, in the past at least, have felt that not all Red Dwarf threads need to be nit-picky plot-hole threads (well they are to me, lol). I also feel that I've had eye-rolling and cries of "not THIS again" when raising other things I consider on-topic, like - back in 2012 - race and gender in RDX. So I think we're all bozos on this particular bus, and that includes me.
Now we have an ignore button, posters could be forgiven for paying less attention to the experience of others when adding new content, whether starting new threads or filling them with nonsense (I know I do). IMO, this forum should be a "silent disco" - where we listen to the stuff we like, being selective - rather than a "roller disco", where we bombard the DJ with song requests and then crash into each other and fall over angrily.
If (as per thread title) you're saying you don't like certain posters for this reason, then that's a natural and human response. No one likes everyone. If (as per the text of the opening post) you regard it as a grievance, and think it would be helpful to have a civil discussion about it, then that's my perspective on it so far.
As I've explained, though, the specific reason for acting over the avatar was the fact that it's attached to every post, no matter where you make them. In and of itself, was the comment worse than a personal attack on an individual user? Probably not. But my issue was the fact that you were tying it to every appearance you make anywhere on the forum (which in your case is quite a lot, because you post a lot!) That's why I requested immediately that you change it.
As we've talked about, there's generally a different approach to things in the off-topic section and the on-topic sections. But sometimes avatars and signatures bring things from the off-topic sections into the on-topic sections, and that's what I was/am trying to avoid.
I wonder if @Deep_Space_in_the_15th_Century wonders what @Ant the Dragon thinks about this (cos he/she blocked him)
Oh and @kry102001 should give his two cents also
I don't like you.
You know who you are.
The general vibe I'm getting from @Deep_Space_in_the_15th_Century is one of a guy who just moved to town, went down the local pub and decided he didn't like the regulars, so he kept complaining to the management about them, telling the manager how he felt these people should do things. Then got enraged when it didn't happen.
I'm completely confused by what you want here @Deep_Space_in_the_15th_Century. We were asked to keep jokes to the off topic section, which I feel we have. But that doesn't seem good enough for you. You want us not to make them at all? Because you don't get them?
You want this entire section removed because you want us to talk about what YOU want to talk about, as you don't like what we talk about?
You don't like or care about what the drama or jokes around here are about, but you're asking a lot of questions about who is who and what means what?
I don't get it.
I agree with what @Pumpkinikki thinks about this.
Like what do you want? Apart from one mess in the Silconia thread that wasn't even started by us we keep our nonsense in here. After Seb told us to stop messing up the other areas of the forum we have. Even the Tex Rimmer stuff has been on the decline. Me and Nikz haven't memed towards each other in a while. In face I am not sure there has been anything in particularly distracting posted in a while.
Also if you see a thread started by me (in fairness i usually put my name in the title) or one by Nikki or anything you don't have to go into it...
If you feel so left out why don't you start a thread. Make some topics you want to talk about and we will all join in as best we can. But I honestly haven't really seen you contribute anything apart from moaning that you dont like what me and the goof troop have been posting.
And on a side note I have seen some accusations of bullying and things to random users. We have explained why we sometimes look like we are giving neil old the buisness and he knows full well why, but he is a big lad and has always been able to take criticism. Also you mention Kry10 and I think we all quite like Kry10. He has been a good sport and joined in with the fun as of late which we have all enjoyed. He doesn't post much so it has been a bit of fun for us to tag him wondering what he thinks about things. He has been good fun about it and that is why we have kept it up. If he asked us to stop we would but to my understanding he hasn't .
If you are feeling left out we could tag you and ask you what you think about things? Typing your full username is pretty long though.
Billy Salt II
I think 15th century has mentioned things that annoy him. Which is, after all,what this thread was partially about. However just cause he mentions things that others disagree with, doesnt make then untrue. I agree with a lot of what he says, and also equally with a lot of what others have said. Sebs above comment about my avatar thing is fair enough , whether his explanation is reasonable considering what others have done, in a less published scale is debatable. some of the stuff fifteenth suggested, like keeping stuff off other forum sections is common sense, and shouldn't really be needed to be explained. But I suppose I have done similar things myself, so it is what it is.
Oh for Pete sake, just because friends who have known eachother for years make inside jokes with one another, doesn't make them a clique! I mean it's being made out like people are pushing away anyone new because they don't fit into some imaginary elite group, and I really don't see this happening, if I did I would say so. Fact is, people generally are naturally going to talk more to those they have history with, the people they've been friends with for years.......that's not being a clique, that's just how basic friendship works!
I'd like to address something real quick. The @squeal mold thing. I think it's being painted like we hate him and ruin all his things just because. We don't, as far as I know. At least personally, while I definitely disagree with him on plenty of things, and think he's done some bad things, I don't hate him. We poke fun at him for his horror threads, the way he uses chairs, and all, but no more than I get poked for being a clam, liking spoons, and getting my girlfriend stolen by Chad, or Cloud for his poo fetish, or Pembers for STOLEing all the time, and I could go on but I won't. Also, while I don't like his views on plenty of things, he's really much more willing to debate, explain, and analyze them than my right-wing buddy Jacob who replies to every shred of disagreement with made-up words. And with his horror threads, we know he won't stop, we know he likes horror, and he knows he posts a lot too. If he yelled at us to quit making fun of him and let him enjoy it, fine. But he mostly does just play along. I wouldn't say he's my best friend by a long shot, but I definitely don't think any of us go out of our way to give him crap any more than we do each other, or than we would mind if he did to us.
Yeah I fully agree, I was baffled by the "bullying Neil Old" accusation. As far as I knew it was just theatrical banter :/
@kry102001, if I could like that twice I would.
Well said Kry10. Everyone has a bad day sometimes and posts something they regret afterwards (I certainly did the other day, and I did - and do - sincerely apologise for that). I don't have a problem with anyone on here, and I have never blocked anyone; I actually think it's great that genuine friendships have been formed through a shared love of this quirky little space show. The only thing I really dislike on here is the whole pretending-to-be-someone-else sockpuppet thing, which I utterly fail to understand. That creeps me out a bit, but I'm probably not the only one to feel like that.
So, in the words of a saluting Rimmer, carry on. I might join in sometimes if that's OK.