The day democracy died

Discussion in 'THE AIGBURTH ARMS' started by neilold, Mar 22, 2019.

  1. neilold

    neilold Science Officer

    Messages:
    10,316
    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2009
    Location:
    above you all in cheshire
    Next Friday is officially the day we are supposed yo leave the EU. It is looking very much like it's not going to happen. This is a direct rejection of the democratic process and the will of the people. I am shamed by it and the death of any pretence of the power of the individual. We are a laughing stock, especially in the eyes of Europeans, and have ended up as some kind of living embodiment of an o.t.t spitting image sketch.

    I can some my entire attitude and mood up with these ten words. I don't want to live on this planet any more.
     
  2. Seb

    Seb Captain Staff Member

    Messages:
    1,879
    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2011
    Location:
    JMC HQ
    Well, the will of 37% of people.
     
    Simonr1978 and Nikki the Great like this.
  3. neilold

    neilold Science Officer

    Messages:
    10,316
    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2009
    Location:
    above you all in cheshire
    Whatever, you can argue about numbers all day. The point I'm making is that it's a rejection. Any actual opinions on that, or are you merely concerned with percentages???
     
  4. Seb

    Seb Captain Staff Member

    Messages:
    1,879
    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2011
    Location:
    JMC HQ
    I think the government is perfectly entitled not to carry out the action indicated by an advisory referendum (not a legally binding one) when only 37% of the electorate voted for that action and when that action is so self-evidently massively destructive to the wellbeing of the country.

    I also think it's a greater rejection of the democratic process not to heed the calls for a further vote on the matter now that more of the facts are known to us, and we know that the first vote was utterly corrupted by foreign interference. That, to me, is where democracy died - that we let a handful of self-appointed elites and foreign powers take control of a supposedly democratic vote to get the result they want and line their pockets, and instead of rejecting it, just went along with it because the newspapers told us to.
     
    Simonr1978 and Nikki the Great like this.
  5. Underdunn

    Underdunn Deck Sergeant

    Messages:
    1,498
    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2016
    I have some thoughts on this matter @neilold but shall we just save time and skip to the bit where you bail out with "Lets just agree to disagree" - cos honestly, it's exhausting otherwise.
     
    Simonr1978 and Nikki the Great like this.
  6. neilold

    neilold Science Officer

    Messages:
    10,316
    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2009
    Location:
    above you all in cheshire
    Another useful contribution
     
  7. Underdunn

    Underdunn Deck Sergeant

    Messages:
    1,498
    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2016
    What would you like me to say? You've already ruled out facts and data within just one post! Just buy one of those nodding dog toys and shout your outrage at that instead, it'll never challenge you.
     
    Simonr1978 and Nikki the Great like this.
  8. Cloud

    Cloud Flight Co-Ordinator

    Messages:
    6,639
    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2002
    Location:
    Tex Rimmer
    Its never worth while trying to reason with Neil. Its must faster just call him an Idiot and move on. Neil you're an idiot.
     
    Simonr1978 and Nikki the Great like this.
  9. dvd3500

    dvd3500 Supply Officer

    Messages:
    561
    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2008
    As Rimmer said (paraphrasing) , the problem with democracy is every dingbat gets a vote.

    The things I learned 2016:
    1. The public is extremely easily to manipulate. If you watch The Prisoner episode Free for All you will see him prophesying this back in the late '60s. He gets elected by literally telling people what they want to hear.

    Once the referendum passed I did an experiment and "liked" every bit of conservative, right-wing thing that crossed my Facebook feed. I didn't go looking for it or share. I merely hit "like" for 3 days straight. The only thing I did differently is I made sure I checked my feed hourly.

    By the 4th day I saw pretty much nothing but things that would sing to my song sheet, if I were a Republican.
    It was as if the whole world agreed with me.

    I then waited 24 hours and clicked on friends' profiles who I know are Democrats/Progressives. For one day on an hourly basis I clicked things that were as far left as possible. Again, only liking. The only difference to the first round was I had to go looking.

    The next 2 days anything that hit my feed that was Hillary/Democrat etc. I liked. No sharing... just liking.

    And voilĂ : on day 4 there was nothing right wingee at all.

    There is strong evidence that social media is being manipulated from the outside.
    There is even stronger evidence that people are not educated or trained to know what information is valid and what not.

    This was on facebook only. I presume Twitter results would have been similar.

    Don't get me started on more traditional media....

    2. There is a failure in the education systems of the US and the UK. I have spoken to over a dozen people who voted in the referendum. All but one that voted 'leave' fully understood the repercussions. One remorseful Leaver showed me a video of some Brexiter claiming getting agreements would be the "easiest thing in the world" and within 24 hours the foreign minister of that country made it clear that was not the case. I asked him if he had seen the foreign minister's video at the time and he said "no".

    Every single complaint I heard by Brexiters could be resolved in some way or another by legal means that already existed. There was nothing that I heard that couldn't have been handled within the regular mechanism of the EU.
    Would it be easy?
    Probably not.
    Would it be fast?
    When is a government fast about anything (except maybe banning guns in New Zealand! Good on ya!)?

    The UK had far more leniency and exceptions than any other country in the EU.

    And a lot of the issues brought up, like fishing actually had Brexiters in EU Parliament to get a better deal for the EU and THEY FAILED. So the same people who couldn't get it done IN the EU are supposed to be able to get it done, with the SAME people OUTSIDE the EU?

    There were blatant lies spewed and it was within a matter of seconds that these lies could be countered yet people simple did not do it.

    I say education has not been able to keep up with technology (again a trope of The Prisoner) failed us.

    Something as simple as "what would happen if the UK left" doesn't seem to have been addressed until AFTER the referendum.

    The US is even worse as we all know so please don't feel it is a UK thing... PS: I was a teacher in the US. When metal detectors were installed I decided my calling was somewhere that involved a lower chance lead in my body..

    3. Politicians are completely and utterly out for themselves. When you look at what the referendum was, merely a "hot or not" question to gauge public sentiment no one was under any obligation to follow through on it (to Seb's point).

    Also the referendum was poorly executed. Remainers clearly had a much higher opinion of the public and were rocking in the love that everyone knew what leaving meant.

    Every single step of the way, every speech, every vote, every motion you can tell there is jockeying for political power and people are more worried about re-election.

    It is plainer than piece of toast on black asphalt that they do not have the public or the nation's wellbeing in mind.
    They are elected to make big decisions because frankly most of us don't have the knowledge to know what is truly right for the country or its people.

    The US has the same problem but in a different way. The sheer size and diversity mean it pretty much impossible for a Wall Street banker to agree on policies that affect the Midwest farmer.

    Farage and Johnson jumping ship should have sent off alarm bells.

    There is evidence of lying and and of cheating. There are enough irregularities to warrant a revisit of the topic but now politician has the chutzpa to do it.

    In my ideal world a politician is like any other professional: I go to them for advice because I can't know everything about everything. As the sign in the doctor's office says "your google search does not replace my medical degree".

    I would hold politicians to the same standard but after 2016 I become physically sick of seeing what has become of this.

    Sycophants... all of them (US and UK).

    4. You don't need a country to be sovereign. I have been thinking this way for years. For over 25 years I have lived in a country where I cannot vote. In the country I can vote my vote is nearly never counted (first passed the posts and all that). If I needed a country to feel sovereign I am SOoL. There is no country that represents me. There is no government that takes my issues into consideration. My interests do not interest anyone (politically).

    Still: What I can and cannot control is still largely up to me.
    How I interact and react with society is largely up to me.

    Our entire lives are our DECISIONS.
    Not our abilities.
    Not our backgrounds.
    Not our heritage.
    Those can affect our decisions, yes, but a decision, at the end of the is what triggers the action.

    I provide and take care of my direct and extended family.
    I don't need some government to do that (though I am thankful that at least most of family would be covered if I weren't here)
    I do volunteer work.
    I organize social events at work.
    I pursue various hobbies.

    None of any of that has been affected by the fact that I am practically persona non grata with no political and in some cases legal influence.

    Sovereignty to me is who will keep a photo of me in their house after I am dead.
    Sovereignty to me is who cracks a smile on their face when the think of me.
    Sovereignty to me is the warm hug from friends and family.
    Sovereignty to me is realize that I have a mind of my own and I can change when new information comes to light.

    If you think having a different government or living in a different sort of economic union will really make a change you have missed out severely on what life is all about.
     
    Simonr1978 and Nikki the Great like this.
  10. Asclepius

    Asclepius Deck Sergeant

    Messages:
    2,369
    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2016
    Location:
    Behind you
    As an EU citizen I feel sorry you, not because you chose to leave the EU, but because of the mess you have now, when nobody can agree on anything.
    From my point of view, there was an agreement. It wasn't the best one, but it was there. The parliament rejected it and all you have now are three week to make and accept new agreement, which is insane.

    I don't agree with the second referendum. For what I can say from my central European perspective, the decision has been made and it's too late to change it, when you suddenly realized you don't agree with it.
     
    Simonr1978 likes this.
  11. TongueTiedMateyBoy

    TongueTiedMateyBoy Third Technician

    Messages:
    45
    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2019
    Location:
    Great Lever
    A 72% turnout can hardly be taken seriously as being representative of "The People". You can bet your bottom dollar pound that those other 28% of people wish to f*** that they had exercised their rote to vote now considering the mess that Dave & those 37% of eligible voters have created.
     
    Nikki the Great likes this.
  12. Underdunn

    Underdunn Deck Sergeant

    Messages:
    1,498
    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2016
    Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa! The thread creator has made it VERY clear that this is about subjective opinion and outrage, please re-do your post without any facts or figures. Thank you. x
     
    Nikki the Great likes this.
  13. neilold

    neilold Science Officer

    Messages:
    10,316
    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2009
    Location:
    above you all in cheshire
    Yes that's a lot of help
     
  14. neilold

    neilold Science Officer

    Messages:
    10,316
    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2009
    Location:
    above you all in cheshire
    Thank you dvdman for actually taking time to provide an answer. Instead of desperately using it as an excuse to criticize the original poster, or to try to prove some unspecified point about percentages. You raise some interesting points and convey your message thoughtfully. however, as much as I agree with most of what you say. The original point made in my original post remains.

    Even if It is outrage, it is justified in my opinion, over an issue that has being called one of the most important of recent decades.
    I
    I think a lot of voters maybe did not analyse the outcome of voting either way. Regardless of this though, the situation still remains. Maybe if the government had not taken three years to come to this position, there wouldn't be so much anger and hostility towards them

    As for Facebook, I take it as read that it is agenda driven, as Is twitter, hence many peoples problems with it and it's fake cries of outrage and sympathy
     
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2019
  15. neilold

    neilold Science Officer

    Messages:
    10,316
    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2009
    Location:
    above you all in cheshire
    I've always said everybody should vote, and I will always defend that view. The phrase 'the people' has being used by both remainers and leavers, so i think it's relevant. Regardless at least one side of that particular voting issue are being let down in many people's eyes
     
  16. Nikki the Great

    Nikki the Great Flight Co-Ordinator

    Messages:
    6,956
    Joined:
    May 14, 2012
    Shutup and behave yourself Neil :sulk:
     
  17. dvd3500

    dvd3500 Supply Officer

    Messages:
    561
    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2008
    The US overturned the Prohibition act so there ARE democratic ways to resolve an idiotic move.
    You can't dictate morality via politics and you can't force sovereignty through protectionism.
     
    Nikki the Great likes this.
  18. neilold

    neilold Science Officer

    Messages:
    10,316
    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2009
    Location:
    above you all in cheshire
    Fair enough. But what about the majority percentage who voted to leave. So the government is happy to be seen to ignore that majority and call them idiotic? I am very keen to hear you think that can be achieved without it being seen as a change of the result
     
  19. dvd3500

    dvd3500 Supply Officer

    Messages:
    561
    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2008
    That is the point. Prohibition became law and then they changed their minds.
    Change is part of democracy.
     
    Nikki the Great likes this.
  20. neilold

    neilold Science Officer

    Messages:
    10,316
    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2009
    Location:
    above you all in cheshire
    Yes, but you can't change law willy nilly, that is the point of government. otherwise there is no point in even having a legal framework, if you are just going to change them because some people happen to not like them. but I get and appreciate your point though, laws are revised, edited etc, all the time. However this time is different, it is the result of a referendum of the people, any alteration of the outcome, could cause a constitutional crisis.

    This whole thing is not just me flag waving, or little Englanding, it has being stated by many media outlets and many mp's themselves, right across the political spectrum. It isn't just a section of the people who will see it as a betrayal, but also a certain section of both political parties. At the very least it's hay making time for the likes of Nigel Farage and the like
     

Share This Page