Explain That?

Discussion in 'RED DWARF UNIVERSE' started by Hollo_Marx, Sep 28, 2014.

  1. Deep_Space_in_the_15th_Century

    Deep_Space_in_the_15th_Century Supply Officer

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    Would a book actually exist though? I mean, they're in 3000000 deep-space and encountering GELFs (the hairy ones) for the first time. From what information source could Kryten "study" Modern Kinitowawi?
     
  2. jmc2000

    jmc2000 Deck Sergeant

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    Fair point... but I think we have to be generous and assume that, if something is stated to exist, it exists unless it contradicts the established rules of the Dwarf universe.

    Perhaps GELF dialects are more static than human ones, and survived unchanged for millions of years? And maybe they salvaged a new source for the Universal Translator?
     
  3. Deep_Space_in_the_15th_Century

    Deep_Space_in_the_15th_Century Supply Officer

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    I suppose if the GELF dialects are isolated, they'd be more conservative. So possibly the Universal Translator was programmed with 22nd century GELF dialects, which are unchanged in the 30022nd century. Kryten says he's "studied the dialect", but presumably he studied all the dialects, because there's no mention of Kinitowawi in the warning-beacon so why would he study Kinitowawi particularly.
     
  4. Ant E

    Ant E Flight Co-Ordinator

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    Who cares?
     
  5. Deep_Space_in_the_15th_Century

    Deep_Space_in_the_15th_Century Supply Officer

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  6. Deep_Space_in_the_15th_Century

    Deep_Space_in_the_15th_Century Supply Officer

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    @jmc2000 Maybe Kryten had already encountered modern Kinitowawi when he was aboard the crashed Nova-5, and just never mentioned them until now.
     
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  7. FeeBee

    FeeBee Deck Sergeant

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    I wouldn't put it past Kryten to have cleaned the knowledge of getting visited but the Kinitowawi but not the actual language itself. Or never mentioned it because it wasn't important.
     
  8. jmc2000

    jmc2000 Deck Sergeant

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    Also, they aren't human. On Earth, having "cultures" that change over time seems to be a uniquely human trait, and unique to Homo sapiens. Early humans made the same tools the same way for millions of years.
     
  9. Ant E

    Ant E Flight Co-Ordinator

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  10. Asclepius

    Asclepius Supply Officer

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    Talking about GELF dialects: Why Kryten speaks different dialect in Emohawk and in Ouroboros, when he talks to the same GELFS?
     
  11. Deep_Space_in_the_15th_Century

    Deep_Space_in_the_15th_Century Supply Officer

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    What makes you say it's a different dialect? It's the same Kinitowawi.
     
  12. Asclepius

    Asclepius Supply Officer

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    Some examples:
    Emohawk - Polymorph II
    Kryten: Agi gan bachwoo machuwahwah.

    You can recognize words. It looks like possible real language.

    Ouroboros
    Kryten: Er, sir? They're demanding you return to your bride. In Gelf law, seperation is impossible without special dispensation from hhakk-akhhaak- kkhhak, hhakh-hhakhkhkahak-hkaahkahk-hkhk. Chief Justice of hakhakhk- aahkahkh-hkhakkhaakhaaakah-akkk-hhakaaaak-kak-akk-hakkakak.

    Just some unrecognizable mess with hkhkhakhkha.
     
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  13. Ant E

    Ant E Flight Co-Ordinator

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    Again, who cares?
     
  14. RainbowGazelle

    RainbowGazelle Third Technician

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    The people reading this thread. If you're not interested, then smeg off to another thread.
     
  15. Ant E

    Ant E Flight Co-Ordinator

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    I still don't care though?
     
  16. Deep_Space_in_the_15th_Century

    Deep_Space_in_the_15th_Century Supply Officer

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    @Asclepius One is a regular sentence, while the other is the name of the Chief Justice, Hhakk-akhhaak- kkhhak hhakh-hhakhkhkahak-hkaahkahk-hkhk. This name is quite similar to the name of Lister's bride, Ech-ech-ech-ech-ech-ech-ech-ech. Pronouns are often very different to the rest of the language, being imports or archaic leftovers.

    If Chief Justice is some sort of religious, royal or hereditary position in Kinitowawi society, then it stands to reason that the name and the job title might be connected. Maybe Chief Justices have to be from a particular bloodline. So perhaps Hakhakhk- aahkahkh-hkhakkhaakhaaakah-akkk-hhakaaaak-kak-akk-hakkakak is a particular locale or family with those types of names, and the current Chief Justice has to be from that family, or adopt a name to pretend he's from that family. A bit like how Popes change their names when they become Pope.

    In my estimation, this suggests that the Kinitowawi language has evolved over time, @jmc2000.
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2017
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  17. Deep_Space_in_the_15th_Century

    Deep_Space_in_the_15th_Century Supply Officer

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    This post doesn't interest me.
     
  18. Ant E

    Ant E Flight Co-Ordinator

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    Right, now that tedious answer is "explained". Please god someone pick a new subject before the forum falls asleep.
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2017
  19. jmc2000

    jmc2000 Deck Sergeant

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    To be fair, I think GELF culture probably does evolve. If they were purely servile life-forms - mechanoids made of meat - it would be a bit weird if they'd been created with their own language and tribal customs from the start. "This is Ech-ech-ech, he'll be spraying the doors for the new Volvo. He's also a highly-respected medicine man and shaman." Camille is a GELF, but doesn't act like an uncontacted tribeswoman. We can assume all GELFs were the same, except for the far-future descendants of those who were blasted into space and started their own (evolving) cultures. The "static language" theory was a suggestion, but it's not my favourite one, because it makes it hard to explain where GELF language came from in the first place!

    It might be worth having some sort of catch-all "explain that" for when the Dwarfers have access to information that's far-future, relative to their own times. Possibilities:

    - Kryten's been continuously awake for millions of years. We assume he was quietly getting on with his chores on the Nova 5, but maybe he had some adventures of his own, and is too modest to talk about them much?

    - Salvaging information from derelicts. Because AIs are common in the Dwarf universe, maybe this would include information about things that happened after human civilisation vanished. Perhaps there are probes scattered through deep space, quietly broadcasting their findings - and computers on crashed derelicts, still receiving updates?

    - Similar to the above, but with a psi-scan that constantly (cleverly) updates itself. A lot of transmissions were made during three million years. A lot of AIs were learning and communicating. Perhaps random trivia fills space now - like the background noise from the Big Bang? The psi-scan may constantly decode that noise and update itself.

    - All of the above, but using some (currently non-existent) technology to fill the gaps, and create complete data sets from mere snippets.

    Twice now, we've seen computers in Red Dwarf that can unerringly predict the future (Cassandra and Pree). Predicting the future based on what you know about the present, is essentially the same trick as knowing stuff about the present based on what you know about the past and other stuff you know about the present. E.g., there's no reason why Cassandra or Pree couldn't have predicted the vocab and grammar of the Kinatawowi people before it even evolved - so why couldn't they derive it from a knowledge of GELF history and a couple of samples of real speech?

    Based on the established rules of the Dwarf universe, it's not inconceivable. Then, if you throw in bullets 1-3, you have a lot of wiggle room in terms of what the Dwarfers could plausibly know about GELFs, and quite a lot of other stuff too.
     
  20. Deep_Space_in_the_15th_Century

    Deep_Space_in_the_15th_Century Supply Officer

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    Once again we're facing this conundrum about just how the GELFs are out there. If the GELFs are all 1st-generation GELFs who were personally transported into deep-space in stasis-ships, then where did their culture come from. Was "Kinitowawi" a word that 20-something-century humans would have known, or did their tribal structure evolve over generations in deep-space?

    I find the concept of Nova-5-Kryten having adventures very difficult to accept given the whole point of him was how insipid and un-adventurous he was until Lister corrupted him. Also, he believed his human crew were still alive and needing care until the Dwarfers told him they were dead, so he wouldn't have left them for any extended period. But perhaps Kryten encountered the Kinitowawi in that weird period where he went off on his own on Lister's motorbike before deciding to join the crew afterall.
     

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