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Discussion in 'RED DWARF XI / XII' started by Seb, Sep 23, 2016.
I really do like this episode. I was humoured a lot. Tv screen is better viewing somehow.
I think the "sincerity" thing was just an early theory for why it punished him for saying something nice. That was before they realised the drive had been reversed. The truth was more simple
Like last week, another good idea that failed to live up to its potential.
Yes, I'm assuming Kryten was actually right about the drive detecting sincerity, it was just how he interpreted it in relation to Rimmer's compliment that was wrong.
Agree! That was a lot more fun to watch than on my own, on a laptop. It's great to see such an overwhelmingly positive reaction on Twitter too (though I am listening to the Dwarfcast as I write this, which is bringing everything down to earth a bit!)
Ha ha - maybe it was their fault! Most of the crew were stabbing and you-know-whatting each other, but two of the crew let the whole side down - by behaving and eating a civilised dinner
Well, I assume that the ship couldn't fly itself (or could it?) so whenever someone stopped screwing/killing/strangling and tried to actually run the ship or fix the karma drive, that counted as moral behavior and was punished, so the crew were stuck in a kind of vicious circle where they just had to keep being immoral and they were doomed no matter they did? But then you would think the drive would allow some leeway, otherwise before the drive's programming was changed the ship would've broken down whenever someone did something immoral. I reckon the best explanation is what I think someone upthread said, that it was probably malfunctioning by that point, that something went wrong when it was tampered with. Or when it was reprogrammed, it was fried by the overwhelming good and moral behavior of the crew and that caused a malfunction? Or the ship was so damaged by that point that the self-repair mechanism didn't have enough time to repair the malfunction before the flash heating?
I suppose the drive malfunctioning is a possibility, but I don't find it a very satisfying explanation because there's no evidence to back it up. I think Kryten's line to Rimmer, 'Perhaps it wasn't genuine', may give us the best clue - it must be impossible to fool the karma drive, a forced orgy just won't cut it. It knows your inner soul! (wow, that makes it even more sinister).
Of course, this would mean that Rimmer was being genuinely nice to Kryten. Or is that a stretch too far?
I reckon they'd been fornicating for hours and were just taking a break before diving back in. It's exhausting, you know! Perhaps you don't. I certainly don't.
They could have been both males locked in the dark. That would have made for a good flashback.
I was thinking about that orgy. If everyone there is single and consenting, the Karma drive may not register it as immoral behaviour. Furthermore, any selfless act would go against you.
That being said, also brings up the point of rape. Were any of the men willing to rape to save their own lives?
Jesus Christ its a sitcom.
Samsara had its problems, mainly for me being that I didn't laugh as much as I'd like to have done (the flashbacks scenes in particular I didn't find humourous at all), and then there was that ending. It did feel very rushed, didn't it?
That said, I was really into the episode. It was very atmospheric, and the plot was good enough that I didn't mind that I wasn't finding laugh-a-minute funny. The character dynamics were on point as well (as in Lister/Rimmer, Rimmer/Kryten and Lister/Cat). All in all, I enjoyed it more than Twentica. I gave Twentica 6 out of 10 after first viewing, so I'd say Samsara was a 7 out of 10.
At this rate, if every episode is better than the last, I'll be a very happy bunny (and I'm optimistic: of the brief synopsises I've read for each episode, I'd say Twentica and Samsara were the ones I was least interested in). Fingers crossed, RDXI could be something special...
Honesty didn't really like this. I still don't really get what happened even after a few viewings, seemed very muddled.
How did the crew of the Samsara die? They were all up to no good in order to keep the karma drive from punishing them, so why did they get 'flash heated'? What exactly is flash heating supposed to be? Did the ship crash because everyone was having sex or because they all got flash heated during sex?? eh??
The episode also came across as a bit sadistic really, it felt more like a mini episode from the 'Saw' movie franchise. The karma drive basically acting like some kind of torture device that vaporises you if you fail to do the right thing. But apparently you're not able to do the right thing and still end up getting flash heated?
Even when the lovers manage to escape in the evac pod, apparently that's still not good enough to fully escape the karma drives reach? That doesn't really make sense, why would it have such a vast field of coverage that extended outside and beyond the actual ship? Also, the notion is actually rather unnerving and depressing, the lovers still couldn't escape the drive and got wiped out, Jesus!
There was some nice bits of dialog between Cat and Lister, and Lister and Rimmer, but other than that it all felt too familiar. The plot had no originality, was convoluted and dreary, and just felt like a blend of various bits and pieces from previous episodes.
Apparently the skeleton orgy in This episode was actually a joke lifted from the script of unmade series VIII episode Phwoaar....or so I have been told, I can't confirm if this is true or not.
Big fan of this episode - agree the Cat and Lister bit was too long and the episode ended suddenly but for me, this was probably my fav episode since series 6. Everything I love about Red Dwarf. You get a sense of all the weird and wonderful stuff out there in deep space - such a rich 'Red Dwarf world' if you like. But the crew discover it many, many years after other life forms have been there and are now long gone (Kryten, Legion, Justice, Meltdown, Quarantine, Epideme, Cassandra. Keeps the essence of the show (that they're alone in deep space) but part of something bigger. I guess it's like explorers discovering artifacts but those 'artifacts' can still be working even if their creators and users are long gone.
There are a few different ways you can take it, really. One is that they simply didn't manage to do all of their nastiness quickly enough.
Another is that the Karma drive interpreted their mass orgy of free love as a good thing. Remember that it's not the act of having sex that was deemed to be morally wrong, but the extra-marital aspect. Maybe not enough of the people onboard ship were married, so their actions weren't seen by the computer as illicit?
This was my first thought as well, as we don't know the vagaries of the moral code installed in the karma drive. It would be strange if it interpreted murder as a good thing though. I'm still most convinced by the 'acting with genuine intent' theory, although this is mainly based on Kryten's conjecture. As you say, there are a few possible interpretations, so perhaps it doesn't matter what the real reason is. I only wish that in the final scene Kryten had said that the crew 'tried to survive' rather than 'survived' - it would make more sense that way.
The point was that it had been reversed. You can look at it two ways, that it thought bad things were good or that it rewarded bad things, both amount to the same thing: the crew was compelled to do bad things. I'm guessing the "rewards" weren't luxuries, they were necessary things like edible food, moderate temperature, oxygen. Or maybe the rewards weren't necessary and it was a comment on the fundamentally hedonistic nature of man.
I can't remember why the crew got flash-wiped, but I'm guessing the karma drive inexplicably got more and more "reversed" to the point where the crew were having to do worse and worse things to stay alive. They just couldn't keep up, and the karma drive killed them for not being wicked enough.
Incidentally, I thought Samsara was inspired by the film Event Horizon, where the crew of a spaceship go crazy and murder each other because they're posessed by space-demons.
I understand that, I was just trying to come up with a satisfactory explanation as to why the crew were killed despite doing these bad things. It appears that even murder wasn't judged an immoral act by the karma drive, as the murderers were punished rather than rewarded. That's why I wondered whether the drive could detect intent - they were desperately trying to be immoral, but the drive just wasn't buying it. Or perhaps, as you say, the drive was simply malfunctioning after millions of years of disuse. Or maybe they realised too late how to save themselves, by which time the flash heating had already reached a critical level and couldn't be reversed. I'm OK with any of these theories - as long as those two words can be added to Kryten's final summing up!
Yeah, that doesn't explain how it works for Kryten when he punched Lister in the face.
Maybe he actually enjoyed it.